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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've done a search and I've read until I went :tard: on clutch problems. Heres my story

Firstly there has always been a ticking type noise from the clutch - not very bad but it disappeared when you pulled the clutch. I had a quick look inside the cover and the basket looked OK so I let it be.
Yesterday I went for a ride and I noticed after a short time that when I let off the throttle and pulled the clutch there was a whining noise. It was fine on the gas and only happened when I coasted with the clutch pulled. This got worse as I went along so I came back home.
When I got back I put the bike on a paddock stand and took the oil filler cap off. The noise from the clutch was horrenous :scared:. Fearing the worst I removed the cover. Firstly I noticed the clutch arm was worn where it is notched and the fibre clutch plates seemed very dry. The hub looks fine :clap:
I'm wondering should I rip some more or would I get away with replacing the arm and washer type bearing and then drill the hub to allow more oil through ?

tim
 

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Sounds like your stack height got to low and wore out the arm from improper angle....Put a new set of fibers in to proper height,new puller/arm(?),drill the hub....Do a search on this oiling problem.....Several good posts.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
clutch

Cheers holeshot. I'll check the stack height tonight. One thing I've noticed from the parts fiche is there is 2 metal rings at the front of the fibre plates i think these are anti clatter springs but mine have 2 more in the middle of the clutch plates. Would that sound correct ?
 

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Cheers holeshot. I'll check the stack height tonight. One thing I've noticed from the parts fiche is there is 2 metal rings at the front of the fibre plates i think these are anti clatter springs but mine have 2 more in the middle of the clutch plates. Would that sound correct ?
Hmmmmm, never heard of 2 sets of chatter rings....I just do away with those myself.....I bought the Muzzy clutch pack, fibers and all 2.0mm steel plates....Plus a Muzzy billet basket= no problems.....Take your time and measure your stack height(2.23 2.27) and you shouldn`t have any problems.....:thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
clutch

The verniers was working overtime last night :lol: Measured the fibres all OK and stack height seems a tad too height at 57.9mm but I did leave the anti clatter springs in at that height. Not sure if that correct or not.
The only other thing I noticed when I took the basket off to check the bearing was the springs in the basket were rattling a little. Will this cause a problem other than a rattle when reinstalled ? Budget it tight at the moment so I can't afford a billet replacement :scared:
 

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Sounds like your stack height got to low and wore out the arm from improper angle
There is no improper angle. The full throw is the improper angle? Think about that.

....Put a new set of fibers in to proper height,new puller/arm(?),drill the hub....Do a search on this oiling problem.....Several good posts.....
Think about this:

1. I rub both hands together. Which steel to fiber remained cold? Now, is that wear of friction, equally spread the wear pattern? Is that how you change the pack? And you want to go fast, not break wind let alone clutch?
2. I take a dump on the king'seat. Do I stand up and leave is rub both hands together.
3. I sea a squiddy move and will call the ball my way is hey, did you pull up your pants, everything is fine in the clutch basket of my undies? Rub both cheeks together, I be pulling the 100% cotton briefs out the crack is how about that hole is cleaned up some now, right?
4. Or more holes will do it. Where? In the undies? How fast is that oil against the wall on the fling, you want more holes? The engineers did not get it right?
5. Thousands of 12 clutch baskets are in need of drilling? :rotflmao:

OP, you have a bang of throttle, a bang of brake. This is going to send the basket springs all loose. Are we hearing that noise? Sure we are. There are steels and fibers all locked together. They bang in the big basket. Pull the clutch, they no longer bang the big basket; all quiet now, right? Are you hearing that [pull the clutch in/release clutch lever] noise? Sure you are. Did you pull the big basket out and not time the basket gear to the crank gear? There is a wear pattern and now you moved it to a different wear pattern. Will it make a new noise? Sure it will.

OP, did you throw in the steels and frictions any old way? Sure you... Should I make that assumption? In my best clin easwud, 'Well, Did ya punk?"
 

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The verniers was working overtime last night :lol: Measured the fibres all OK and stack height seems a tad too height at 57.9mm but I did leave the anti clatter springs in at that height. Not sure if that correct or not.
The only other thing I noticed when I took the basket off to check the bearing was the springs in the basket were rattling a little. Will this cause a problem other than a rattle when reinstalled ? Budget it tight at the moment so I can't afford a billet replacement :scared:
So your stack height is on the tall side.....I personally don`t run my stack on the thick end of the spec.`s....Springs rattling isn`t good....Especially in a ZX12R.....Be very careful about this.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Clutch

So your stack height is on the tall side.....I personally don`t run my stack on the thick end of the spec.`s....Springs rattling isn`t good....Especially in a ZX12R.....Be very careful about this.....
Think I'm gonna have to bodge it until my budget can stretch to a replacement either billet or OEM :angry: I should have the puller, arm and bearing in a few days and I'll hope for the best i guess :headscratch:
 

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2 sets of chatter rings IS normal for 02 up bikes, actually my brother has a silver A2 that has 2 sets,, secondly i would take the entire clutch pack out and replace everything for $300.00US and call it done,, that is NEW fibers and Steels, a NEW cable,, New puller ,, HD springs and call it a done deal, you wont have to worry for quite some time afterwards! just my .02
 

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Old Hondas that still run, still have a loose spring cage. As long as the rivets hold, where is the damage?

There is a steel plate(s) that is riveted together. There is a spring in the middle. This is more called a wave washer. This steel wave plate takes up the harmonics as the plates collapse onto themselves.

Notice how the wave plate has both steels riveted in the same direction. Notice how this cut side faces the pressure plate or the cover with the springs and bolts to close the pack down with.

Notice how I said the 'steels' face one direction.
Notice how the wave plate is placed in the middle. Did I mention the frictions face one direction too is to see any marks? Face the marks all in the same direction.

Notice how one plate may have spiral type friction pads. These are fling directions so as to whip out the oil between the plate and steel. Notice how the other plates may have the square block pads, without the spiral cut to it.
Notice how that spiral flings in one directions so it has to be installed as such with the direction of the clutch outer.

Notice how the fatter the pack, the bigger lady is sitting on your face with more weight, more tension on the spring?
Notice how that will make the pack last longer so as now you are down to the minimum pack now. If you began at minimum, you are about out of spec, right? Max pack, you have all that wear till you reach minimum spec.
Notice how she has more cushion being fatter. A smoother collapse onto each other. Notice how it had to push the arm deeper into the piston. Notice how hair trigger the break of plate is, you do not need to pull the lever in all the way to the grip.

Notice on a worn clutch pack, you need to pull the lever farther to the grip to break plate. The piston traveled back out of the clutch caliper. This had to fill up more oil as in compress more liquid before the piston would move, as opposed to the piston is deep in the caliper and hardly any oil behind to compress, so hair trigger she is.

Make sense to your key points?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
clutch

2 sets of chatter rings IS normal for 02 up bikes, actually my brother has a silver A2 that has 2 sets,, secondly i would take the entire clutch pack out and replace everything for $300.00US and call it done,, that is NEW fibers and Steels, a NEW cable,, New puller ,, HD springs and call it a done deal, you wont have to worry for quite some time afterwards! just my .02
I've just priced stuff over at this side of the pond - hub €113, fibre discs €12.50 each, steel €7 each, puller €30, arm €31 and basket €403. If I could get that for $300 sign me up :mfclap:

take the rings out when measuring!
Springs out I'm 5.7ish which will hopefully be good enough
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
clutch

Old Hondas that still run, still have a loose spring cage. As long as the rivets hold, where is the damage?

There is a steel plate(s) that is riveted together. There is a spring in the middle. This is more called a wave washer. This steel wave plate takes up the harmonics as the plates collapse onto themselves.

Notice how the wave plate has both steels riveted in the same direction. Notice how this cut side faces the pressure plate or the cover with the springs and bolts to close the pack down with.

Notice how I said the 'steels' face one direction.
Notice how the wave plate is placed in the middle. Did I mention the frictions face one direction too is to see any marks? Face the marks all in the same direction.

Notice how one plate may have spiral type friction pads. These are fling directions so as to whip out the oil between the plate and steel. Notice how the other plates may have the square block pads, without the spiral cut to it.
Notice how that spiral flings in one directions so it has to be installed as such with the direction of the clutch outer.

Notice how the fatter the pack, the bigger lady is sitting on your face with more weight, more tension on the spring?
Notice how that will make the pack last longer so as now you are down to the minimum pack now. If you began at minimum, you are about out of spec, right? Max pack, you have all that wear till you reach minimum spec.
Notice how she has more cushion being fatter. A smoother collapse onto each other. Notice how it had to push the arm deeper into the piston. Notice how hair trigger the break of plate is, you do not need to pull the lever in all the way to the grip.

Notice on a worn clutch pack, you need to pull the lever farther to the grip to break plate. The piston traveled back out of the clutch caliper. This had to fill up more oil as in compress more liquid before the piston would move, as opposed to the piston is deep in the caliper and hardly any oil behind to compress, so hair trigger she is.

Make sense to your key points?
Hubz you're a legend bud :mfclap: From taking a dump and putting stains in my undies to fat ladies sitting on my face :crackup: Fortunately I took everything out in the order I found it (though I didn't line up the basket). i don't have a spiral pattern on any disc but I suspect the clutch was opened before. I'll examine the plates for the markings and put them in some kind of order.

Thanks for all the help lads :thumbup:
 

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if you read my post carefully i never mentioned a basket in the price of $300.00 a basket is a luxury.. but not a needed component to have the bike run proper! i have one but dependeding on how you ride it might not be needed that is your choice. $300.00 covers a COMPLETE clutch change,, basket is extra! how come its not done yet? what does 5.7ish mean,, is that some kind of euro measurement?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
$300.00 covers a COMPLETE clutch change,, basket is extra! how come its not done yet? what does 5.7ish mean,, is that some kind of euro measurement?
That makes sense I figured you guys had huge deals on parts :thumbup:

Apologies I meant 57.7mm. All the fibre plates measure between 32.5 - 33mm. I've search the forum and seen some pics of wrecked hubs and mine looks pretty good (no wear in the grooves) so i drilled it for the oil mod.

I don't have it fixed yet cause I've only just ordered to parts yesterday. The ZX12R wasn't a big seller over here and nobody has parts off the self. I ordered from kawasaki partsmanual fiche 2000 zx1200 a1 zx 12r

From what I've read OEM discs and plates are the only way to go. Santa may sort me out with new stuff :lol:
 

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That makes sense I figured you guys had huge deals on parts :thumbup:

Apologies I meant 57.7mm. All the fibre plates measure between 32.5 - 33mm. I've search the forum and seen some pics of wrecked hubs and mine looks pretty good (no wear in the grooves) so i drilled it for the oil mod.

I don't have it fixed yet cause I've only just ordered to parts yesterday. The ZX12R wasn't a big seller over here and nobody has parts off the self. I ordered from kawasaki partsmanual fiche 2000 zx1200 a1 zx 12r

From what I've read OEM discs and plates are the only way to go. Santa may sort me out with new stuff :lol:
Yes,oem clutch parts are the way to go....Just be very careful with your stock basket....I`ve seen them blow with just normal riding also....Sometimes you can catch a good used billet basket for a good price....Good luck....:thumbup:
 

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Cider,

I speak in the generic. If a plate was there, meaning, the spiral type, you can see how the fling is forced into the basket or flung out of the basket. This shows you were to set the fibers as in their metal plate. Even that thrust washer is set a certain way. Oil has to hang to capture the heat. Drilling more holes and no one engineered the basket at mother K? Really? I better call mother teapot and have her slap the engineers for slacking on the basket theory times how many holesquared.

All I am pointing out are the subtle hints how you assemble an engine by the book. You watch how the theory is applied, then you follow along with the rebuild. Here is more hand magic; You look at thrust direction as a wear pattern or metal scoring each other. The round side lets oil enter between the thrusts. The flat side kind of closes that gap. It's either/or on that puppy. Pick up your thrust washer that locks the outer basket from sliding any farther on the mainshaft. Look at how the round side has no edge. Flip the thrust washer, look at the flat side of it now. Make sense in the generic?

We want to assemble that washer so the round side faces you. That lets the washer bang up against the clutch center when the r0und side is the thrust side. No edge to cut into the clutch center [with] clutch pulled in. Look at how the big basket begins to float, but the clutch center is fixed to the main shaft. Make sense abouthrust position side's two effects?
________________________________________________________________

Back to the clutch pack; Here is the hand trick if the rub trick does not show you wear on each part, then here comes the clutch fiber/steel assembly in the generic. Touch your finger tips and press your palms together. Push your fingers into each other. Think of that as two thrust sides facing each other, meaning, the two [steel plates] cut sides >< are facing each other. That says memory. I am stamped out of a sheet of metal. I have been sheered in one direction look at my cut side or thrust side.

Now, lay your hand over the other. Match fingers as if the steels and frictions all have that memory traveling in one direction >>>>>. No fighting tip for tip on release. Think of that memory on the relax. Look at it as it sort of concaves in. See your tips in memory? That is hard to find N for neutral; you flip flop steels and frictions.

Your fingers can now bend together, you pull clutch lever in. They push each other away and hey, look how easy N is found. Hey, look how more bite the clutch pack has all in one direction. Hey, look at how the back clutches burn first. Then, hey, do you see how the round side is the thrust side, you stack the cut sides facing you? You flip the pancakes in any old way, you see your pack is trying to open itself like a piss clam you don't sea the salt pee tear packed a pack of pickill me a pee peers clutch is packed your way. This is because it ain't my bike!; Generically speaking.

And when ordering, wink-wink, home he does his own packing is he buys the fattest fiber and calls it a day. He no need no stink'inn cal her beer. No, no... Not when peniserved, meaning, you've been served the generic joe jitsue doll of the generic; open to page to clutchapteread it here. Now look here, is she about as fat of a pack is all she can be? Did you ever hump a fat lady till she stops singing? That is a clutch feel her at the lever you won't find in a book.
 
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