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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My clutch fibers (EBC fibers, same model as prior clutch rebuild, triple checked) and plates (brand new oem 1.6, quadruple checked) dont all fit into the clutch basket. IE... My stack height is too high by almost 1 full plate. I noticed the problem after my initial reassembly. I had 0 (none) spring tension on the clutch cable lever. After at least 15 trials/checks/rechecks/rebuilds, it still would not fit. The 11th friction plate is too far out to catch the teeth in the clutch basket (the one that is indexed opposite to the other friction plates.

Understanding that my last fibers were worn, and the steels were EXTREMELY blued from heat (original ones since I've owned the bike, going on my 5 summer now) I was doing a complete rebuild. New springs (EBC) new fibers (EBC, #CK4513) and new steels (oem 1.6) I sat the old stack of fibers and steels on my table, next to the new stack of fibers and steels (11 each fibers/steels in both) and the new stack is clearly (visually, and ruler) higher by at least an 1/8 inch. They look close to even when I remove the last fiber from the new stack.....???? WTF.

Extra info. I have an A1 2000 ZX12. I made 3 trips to the dealership to check throw out bearings/rods, cables, all bolts, pressure plate, anything i could take off short of the actual hub. Everything checked out normal/to spec. I've changed my clutch at least 3 times before, and have never had this problem, albeit this is the first time I have replaced the steels.

My question is.. I removed 1 fiber and 1 steel from my new stack, (testing my theory) reassembled the whole deal, and now the last fiber sits perfectly indexed at the end of the clutch basket (10 steels/10 fibers). The pressure plate now sits normally, slightly indexed with the hub. I get the clutch cover on, adjust the cable slack per the shop manual ( I have one that has been next to me the entire time) and she "APPEARS" to be running normal (on my bike stand at least). I could not get any clutch pressure on the cable throw with a NORMAL SET UP (11 plates each). I could move the cable arm (on the cover) by hand the full throw, and it would not move any further before I had spring tension. I verified my set up at least 10 times.

It appears that the throw out rod (rod that pulls the pressure plate off of the hub/basket) is just too far away to "PUSH" the plate out. Its just holding the plates/fibers in the basket. There is about an inch of play from fully seated (in) to actually touching the inside of the pressure plate (out) when its all assembled.

The new set up (10 fibers/steels) appears to have the correct spring tension, no odd sounds, normal shifting feel, no drag in neutral, NORMAL by my checks, short of actually putting her on the road. Off the stand, I can stall the bike by slowly engaging the clutch in 1st gear. No slipping or any abnormal actions/feelings. I havent gotten out of the garage, but my bike really does appear to be normal???

Has anyone experienced this.. The basket appears to be stock, but I have no explanation of why all 11 plates dont fit. Can the bike run with only 10 fibers/steels?? What are/will be the side effects of keeping this set up. I dont want to order oem fibers, since that is at least another 2 week waiting time??? I've already been down 2 waiting for everything??

Ideas, comments, concerns.... I'm running on empty?? I'll try to post pics later, but I really dont want to take her apart again if I dont need to..

Thx
Indy12RR
 

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sure the chatter rings are overinside the the LARGE diameter friction plate correctly? the one plate is the only one that is the weird duck... or are you not using the chatter rings,, also i wouldnt have wenht with that brand ,, OEM for me,,,, something is NOT correct! pull them out again and check again,, also do a search and look at the photo that shows the 60 degree angle of the puller shaft,, you might ALSO have that incorrect.. and did you put the steels in sharp edge out?
 

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EBC clutch packs are too thick and will mess up your stack height big time....Plus they didn`t work good in my bike anyways.....Go back to Kaw. oem fibers and be done with it....
I`m running the oem fibers and 2.0 steel plates and chatter rings ZERO problems.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Zumina - No I didnt measure the steels. I'll try to take them to work with me and see if I can come across a caliper to use...

Wylde - I did triple check the chatter rings. Both are seated properly just inside of the one fiber plate with the different inner diameter. I have used the same EBC kit in all of my prior rebuilds (at least the same part number) and I havent had any problems. I'm not sure of the miles since, but I have at least 3 summers on the current clutch pack. I took the pressure plate and clutch cover into the dealer to have them checked and I was told the pressure plate, the small needle bearing assembly in the center, and the clutch release lever were all normal and to spec. No binding, nothing abnormal... Please help with with "SHARP EDGE OUT".. I'm lost on what you mean, but I did not make any reference as to how I put the steels in. I just took them out of the kawi bag and installed them...???

Holeshot - I would have to agree, as I am sure that the issue is with the stack height of the fibers/plates. Like I mentioned. I sat each stack side by side and there is a clear difference with the new fibers/steels. Another idea I have is that it might be possible that the steels that were in the bike were the 1.4 version, and running EBC's with the 1.6 is too large??? What is the difference/reason for the 3 different sizes?? I'm just checking for ideas??

Thanks for the help guys. I'll get some pics and measurements tonight..
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
KZSCOTT - Thanks.. Yea I have a PDF copy of the shop manual, and believe me, I've read this section about 100 times. So Ive done some quick measurments (with a ruler, dont have access to a caliper). If I can reference section 5-12 Clutch Plate Assembly Inspection... The "A" measuement (with everything assembled as normal) is about 1/8 inch LONGER with my new fibers/steels vs the old fibers/steels. The old fibers are the same EBC's that I have in the new assembly. The only difference is the NEW assembly has new fibers and NEW 1.6 steels.

I'm guessing the general consensus is that I ditch the EBC's and go with OEM. Seems odd since I've never had this problem before. I

I'm guessing that its not smart to run with 10 fibers/steels? .... *BUT*......The stack height is within spec going by what the manual says, its just 1 fiber/steel short. I've just never heard or read about anyone having such a problem.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to post pics tomorrow
 

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not sure on the EBCs but on the OEM STEELS,, there is a rounded edge and a SHARP edge when felt with your finger... the sharp edge is to be faced out toward you when sliding them in to the basket...
 

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KZSCOTT - Thanks.. Yea I have a PDF copy of the shop manual, and believe me, I've read this section about 100 times. So Ive done some quick measurments (with a ruler, dont have access to a caliper). If I can reference section 5-12 Clutch Plate Assembly Inspection... The "A" measuement (with everything assembled as normal) is about 1/8 inch LONGER with my new fibers/steels vs the old fibers/steels. The old fibers are the same EBC's that I have in the new assembly. The only difference is the NEW assembly has new fibers and NEW 1.6 steels.

I'm guessing the general consensus is that I ditch the EBC's and go with OEM. Seems odd since I've never had this problem before. I

I'm guessing that its not smart to run with 10 fibers/steels? .... *BUT*......The stack height is within spec going by what the manual says, its just 1 fiber/steel short. I've just never heard or read about anyone having such a problem.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to post pics tomorrow
These 12 clutch setups are a black magic kinda deal to get right....Better to use the stock stuff and then buy a couple of different thickness steels to help FINE tune it later when it begins to wear some....I`ve even put 2 steels together to get my stack height just where I want it.....(1.4 or 1.6) as spares....
 

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that's your problem EBC i had them their junk. USE OEM.
 

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not sure on the EBCs but on the OEM STEELS,, there is a rounded edge and a SHARP edge when felt with your finger... the sharp edge is to be faced out toward you when sliding them in to the basket...
Ive seen some aftermarket steels with both sides rounded. not sure on the brand
 

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theres nothing wrong with running fewer clutch plates as long as you start them out right and end up at the correct height (correct angle on the arm)

ever see a muzzy kit? thicker steels, but less of them
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
OK... So I have an update, and a question on this topic. First the update. So far my clutch has been working flawlessly. I've had it in for a little over a month. I've done an 8 hour track day(Buttonwillow is a monster of a track, loved it), riding back and forth to work, and the occasional wheelie here and there. Havent had any problems. I'm still going to order some OEM fibers, but I want to get a little more use out of these just so I dont think I've wasted my money...

Anywho.. My question is this.. Thinking back a bit, I realized that I left my fibers soaking in oil for at least a week, probably longer. Reason being, I soaked them over night, then got the clutch apart, realized I needed new steels, ordered them, and about a week later I put everything back together. I never took the fibers out of my little bowl of oil.

Is it possible that by leaving the fibers in the oil for that long, they soaked up TOO MUCH oil? I'm thinking that if each of the 12 fibers gained 1/16-1/32 of an inch, that would be pretty significant once you start adding them all up. Again.. Just thinking/looking for a reason, because its still hard for me to believe that my new fibers were THAT FAR OFF.. Especially since I've never had a problem with EBC fibers before..

CAN FIBERS SOAK UP TOO MUCH OIL??? (things that make you go HHMMM???)

Thx
Indy12RR
 

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if you soak them overnight (like i do) they wont soak up anymore in a week,, do i think that was the problem.. answer NO! did you ever tell us what your stack height was? dont feel like reading thru the whole thread to see. sharp edge out is exactly what is states,, on the OEM steels there is a sharp edge and a rounded edge,, sharp edge out!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
edit
PRE "sharp edge out" stack height was 57.14 MM
after checking, there were 3 out of 10 that were not "sharp edge out"...
new stack height with all the steels (new OEM) "sharp edge out" was 57.36.
Both measurements within spec, even though I am 1 fiber/steel short.
I didnt measure the thickness of the fibers (rushing, damm me) but I'll try to pull the clutch apart again this weekend.

I guess its all for nothing, because I do have some OEM fibers on the way... I'm just trying to expand my knowledge base.

Thanks for the reply though. Anything helps.

Lesson learned... SHARP EDGE OUT!!!! got it
 

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I`ve had mine in and out 100`s of times.....I`ve done sharp edge in, sharp edge out,chatter rings,no chatter rings and have not been able to see any difference what so ever.....And I have done this on purpose just to see....And go to the track to test but no noticeable difference at all...JMO....
 

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you should have a little more meat,, 57.6 would be ideal maybe even 57.7.. it does make a difference,, are you stacking them lightly oiled and hanging them over a glass or flat surface and then taking the reading with a digital caliper? i dont bother measuring them individually,, but i do take the time to line them up perfect before measurement. and make sure the caliper jaw isnt in a groove and is on the actual pad of the fiber on the top and bottom plate
 

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putting the sharp edge in will cause the hub to wear out prematurely. it may not be noticable in a wknd.
i cant see how they would grow from being soaked in oil. and theres really no need to soak them. you just need to get them wet when you put them in. rub some on with your finger and gtg
 

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putting the sharp edge in will cause the hub to wear out prematurely. it may not be noticable in a wknd.
i cant see how they would grow from being soaked in oil. and theres really no need to soak them. you just need to get them wet when you put them in. rub some on with your finger and gtg
Like you say you won`t notice in the short term(Hubs are dime a dozen anyways,lol...).....Steels go back and forth so they`ll wear in both direction IMO.....And I just oil them with oily hands......
 

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yes they go both ways, but when the clutch pack compresses and the bikes in gear, its under load, forcing the plates to turn the hub with the basket. when you are sliding the clutch from a take off, think about an increasing force pushing the plate into the hub and sideways. do you really want the "cutting edge" sliding allong or do you want the rounded edge sliding?
 
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