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Discussion Starter #1
I was wondering if I could get some of your input. I dropped the motor and took it to a shop today. I blew up my clutch basket, fixed it myself and had knocking on # 4 cylinder when I started it up. I was there for the whole break down and this is what happened. After we got it all broken down the guy said that my motor was in great shape and keep in mind its a 2000 with 20xxx on it. I thought it was rod knock but all the bearings looked good, mains and rods. the rods looked good, pistons were in amazing shape, no skirt wear at all. all the crank journal were good. the only thing was that one bearing looked a little worse than the others but that was in my opinion the guy said it looked fine and that older bearings were better because they were hardened and it there was no point to replace them unless they were shot. im not sure about that but its what he said. the head and cams were good too so luckily the little metal pieces from the basket didnt fuck up the motor and just stopped at the filter. the only part visibly messed up was the oil pump. the tiny metal pieces that got sucked in scarred up the insides. so at this point the only thing messed up is the oil pump. the only thing the guy noticed that could cause the knock was that the crank had some resistance at certain points when you turned it by hand so he thought the crank might be bent. then when he took the head and cylinders off there was practically no resistance on the crank turning so he now he doesnt think the crank is bent but he hasnt actually measured the crank with a dial gauge yet. also he didnt have a dial gauge on had to measure it but he is getting one from his friend to use ?!?! at that point i was doubting how reputable this place is but i was told this is the place to go. on closer inspection of the timing chain it didnt flex as well at certain points, its hard to explain but thats what he thinks was causing the noise. he thinks the cam chain is bad and that the cam chain tensioner wasnt set right or somehow got messed up when the clutch blew and that was what is causing the noise. from what he said and what i could see all the other internals are fine. Sorry long post i know but bear with me. My question is does this seem like legit cause of the problem? also what else should I check or have checked while the cases are open? should I do the bearings or leave them? anything I should do specifically while its open because i was expecting much worse damage when i opened it up, not just the timing chain haha! if that is what it is? and finally in your opinion does this guy seem like a jack ass or should i trust him to do my motor? by the way i asked about the rod bolts and he said i didnt have to change them, he's used the ones in his bike 2 or 3 times. Is this true or should i change them? please help... any info is appreciated
 

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pm answered
 

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Cam chains are cheap and do stretch,change it ,IMO....
The manual says to use new rod bolts(do not reuse)....But if they`ve never been off since new,(your call)....
Check out your shift forks for wear and the rod....Might be some signs of a bent fork...(worth checking)....
 

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Discussion Starter #4
yea we looked at the shift forks and the tranny and the guy that broke it down said they looked great. could a cam chain really sound like rod knock ? and while its open is there anything else i should do?
 

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He sounds like he knows what to look for. Yes, surprised he would not have that where I have about 2 or 3 dial indicators for runout and blacklash kind of dial indicators. So, that is a red flag.

If he used a toothpick as a dial indicator over the center of the crank journal, watched for a gap... I would not throw the red flag up. The chain should drop link after link, you twirl it like between your index fingers. If you get a long ling or 2 that rise up, then, yeah, that could make a knock noise... Maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
yea me and him messed with the chain and it seemed to kind of kink up a little. like we could bend it like it would over a cam shaft and then let it just hang. when we let it hang some stayed kinked and some just went strait. Its not blatantly obvious to me but he said that what he thinks is the problem. And he did have a dial gauge but it wasnt digital and he said he is just going to use his buddies. also it was magnetic and there was no where to stick it on an aluminum block. anything else i should ask him about or do while the motor is apart? also i need opinions on re using rod bolts, he said it would be fine to re use them. also he said the bearings were fine and he wouldn't change them. should i just change them to be safe and do I need to re size rods if i just do the bearings not the bolts.
 

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Most rod and head bolts that I've come across are torque to yield, and reusing them could lead to trouble down the road, as they usually won't torque properly and sometimes break.

Compare the cost to just replace them now vs another motor take down...

My $0.02 on that...:thumbup:
 

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I would at least resize the rods and new bolts as well as they are more than likely 'stretch' style of rod bolts in standed form as is most of the jap stuff ,cars and bikes.As it is you have a certon style of ductile steel, that can be stronger to a certon amount of stretching,but you go past that point it becomes weak again.
 

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Id be certain all the oil passages in the block are blown out with compressed air, also the oil cooler. Carefully inspect the oil pressure relief bypass for particals.
When the basket let go..did you tag the limiter? I ask because its possible to have a valve shim "cock" under the bucket...which could tag a valve. That happened to Scott.
Read what ever Scott wrote, as hes built quite a few.
The eyeball method just doesnt cut it on the bearings...measuring with micometer on ID of the bearing and OD of the crank is the only method...I would replace the bearings but you still have to measure and get the right color.
Rod bolts would probably be ok....use the service manual technique to tighten.
Read my signature line...I hope your back riding soon.
 

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I was wondering if I could get some of your input. I dropped the motor and took it to a shop today. I blew up my clutch basket, fixed it myself and had knocking on # 4 cylinder when I started it up.
:banghead: Did this noise just happen after you installed the new basket and started it? Or after it blew while it was running?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
:banghead: Did this noise just happen after you installed the new basket and started it? Or after it blew while it was running?
When I herd it blow I revved it a couple times just because I had no power to the wheel. I could hear the basket clanking around but didnt really listen that close because I was trying to stop and turn it off asap. Im pretty sure the noise was still when it blew but I know for sure I didnt want to run it when I started it up with the new basket. It was a pretty weird knocking/rattling sound but Im pretty sure it was the timing chain and or cam tensioner. When doing the basket I soaked and cleaned everything out with carb cleaner and I really blew out the timing chain area to get and little metal pieces. you think the carb cleaner messed up the timing chain somehow?!?
 

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All I will say is from my experiance. I think the crank gear that drives your starter clutch and counter balancer has some slight damage to it from the basket metal. The noise you are hearing is the small imperfection in the gear making the starter clutch rattle. Since it is in the center of the motor it is hard to pin point and sounds like the cam chain or tensioner.. I have seem a ton of 12's do this with clutch basket damage. Mine was from a missed gear and the metal that went through was from the engagment dogs in the trans. Check it out and I bet a bunch you will find it. Mine did this and still does just not as bad and goes away after warm and above 2k rpm's. I replaced everything but the crank (starter clutch, counter balancer and trans)....Hope this helps.....

Hate that you tore the whole motor down....I only dropped my motor ans split the cases. Never touched the rotating assembly....
 

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I tell ya if you can get your finger down on the starter clutch and it is still installed in the case rock it back and forth against its detent lock and I bet thats the noise you are hearing......

I also had resistance every 1/4 revolution when we rolled it over......

Mine runs awesome just noisy at idle when its cold...
 

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I would recommend that you replace the connecting rod bolts, cheap insurance and replace the camchain and check out the tensioner, not unknown for them to stick in between serrations. Check your crank and rod bearing clearances with plastigauge to make sure that the clearances are within spec. Use the old rod bolts for checking the clearances and then replace them for the build. When your man stripped the motor, was the camchain loose whilst the cams etc were still fitted or was it tight as normal? A loose camchain will rattle/knock up to 3,500 RPM's and then go quiet. Rod/crank bearing knock gets louder the more you rev the engine. Did you blow out all the oilways throughout the engine and through the crankshaft before you rebuilt the motor last time? Are any of the plain bearings scuffed through to the base metal? If so replace them as well.
Regards Ted Edwards,
back after too long an absence
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Id be certain all the oil passages in the block are blown out with compressed air, also the oil cooler. Carefully inspect the oil pressure relief bypass for particals.
When the basket let go..did you tag the limiter? I ask because its possible to have a valve shim "cock" under the bucket...which could tag a valve. That happened to Scott.
Read what ever Scott wrote, as hes built quite a few.
The eyeball method just doesnt cut it on the bearings...measuring with micometer on ID of the bearing and OD of the crank is the only method...I would replace the bearings but you still have to measure and get the right color.
Rod bolts would probably be ok....use the service manual technique to tighten.
Read my signature line...I hope your back riding soon.
yea im definitely going to check/clean the by pass valve and oil cooler. the rest of the motor is at the shop and they are going to clean it top to bottom for any metal and blow out all the passages. The weird thing is when it blew i was shifting gears and had the clutch pulled in. I wasnt even over 4 grand when it went too because i had just gotten new tires and was breaking them in so i wasnt exactly pushing it. I have 2 miles on these new tires :angry: i also plan to do all the bearings just for the hell of it but the guy insists i really dont need to. the valves are all good nothing hit them and they are going to check the valve clearances anyway. let me know what you think. im pretty sure its the cam chain, and do you think i should do anything else while its open?
 

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All I will say is from my experiance. I think the crank gear that drives your starter clutch and counter balancer has some slight damage to it from the basket metal. The noise you are hearing is the small imperfection in the gear making the starter clutch rattle. Since it is in the center of the motor it is hard to pin point and sounds like the cam chain or tensioner.. I have seem a ton of 12's do this with clutch basket damage. Mine was from a missed gear and the metal that went through was from the engagment dogs in the trans. Check it out and I bet a bunch you will find it. Mine did this and still does just not as bad and goes away after warm and above 2k rpm's. I replaced everything but the crank (starter clutch, counter balancer and trans)....Hope this helps.....

Hate that you tore the whole motor down....I only dropped my motor ans split the cases. Never touched the rotating assembly....
yea the guy checked the grears and i saw them they looked pretty good. nothing was visibly wrong with them and he is going to brush them with a wire brush in case there is and metal pressed onto the gear. explain how you would check for that again anyway? Thats what is weird too everything is fine, pistons, head, cylinders, and trans all thats left is the timing chain so it needed to be split anyway and i have to change the oil pump because it got all scarred up.
 

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yea the guy checked the grears and i saw them they looked pretty good. nothing was visibly wrong with them and he is going to brush them with a wire brush in case there is and metal pressed onto the gear. explain how you would check for that again anyway? Thats what is weird too everything is fine, pistons, head, cylinders, and trans all thats left is the timing chain so it needed to be split anyway and i have to change the oil pump because it got all scarred up.
Mine looked good to the naked eye also just a small little nick in the teeth, no missing metal or anything. We then put a dial indicator on the gear and turned the motor over. That revieled a slight out of round area where the nick was(.06 or something). These gears are all machined to run perfect with each other. Because of that when it runs at 1000 rpm's when that area of the gear goes around the starter clutch it causes it to rock gently on its detent lock and that was the noise we were hearing. We almost never found it until I just refusing to accept that we could not figure it out. We made a bunch of phone calls to some high uppers and they informed us of the common problem. I reached down to the only thing we did not check and there it was, I turned the starter clutch and wiggled it against its detent lock and bingo there was the noise we were hearing and the engine builders were right. I refused to replace the crank cause of the 900 price tag. This is why I have/had a little grief toward the 12s. I am stuck with an awesome running 12 that rattles when cold under 2k rpm's......Why I also refuse to put any more $ in mods and just leave it stock and ride the shit out of it.....Good luck and hope you are riding again soon.....

Yes I replaced my oil pump also.....same deal it sounds....
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Mine looked good to the naked eye also just a small little nick in the teeth, no missing metal or anything. We then put a dial indicator on the gear and turned the motor over. That revieled a slight out of round area where the nick was(.06 or something). These gears are all machined to run perfect with each other. Because of that when it runs at 1000 rpm's when that area of the gear goes around the starter clutch it causes it to rock gently on its detent lock and that was the noise we were hearing. We almost never found it until I just refusing to accept that we could not figure it out. We made a bunch of phone calls to some high uppers and they informed us of the common problem. I reached down to the only thing we did not check and there it was, I turned the starter clutch and wiggled it against its detent lock and bingo there was the noise we were hearing and the engine builders were right. I refused to replace the crank cause of the 900 price tag. This is why I have/had a little grief toward the 12s. I am stuck with an awesome running 12 that rattles when cold under 2k rpm's......Why I also refuse to put any more $ in mods and just leave it stock and ride the shit out of it.....Good luck and hope you are riding again soon.....

Yes I replaced my oil pump also.....same deal it sounds....
Thanks man that really makes sense. im going to mention that to my mechanic and have him check for that too
 
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