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Discussion Starter #1
Here it is. I definitely made the right decision with the Yosh EMS. It is very easy to install, a 10 year-old could do it. The software is very simple, straightfoward, and easy to use. You dont need to be a computer engineer to build a map or manipulate the timing. The sofware is adjustable while the bike is running and some of the advanced options are amazing. And the advanced options include a clutchless shifter, 3-way adjustable map switch that mounts on the handlebars and you can switch maps on the fly, and programmable shift light. Took fifteen minutes to install on the bike. Took fifteen minutes to build my first map(with the info I already knew about my fuel mixture). Took fifteen minutes to hook up the computer to the bike, download the map I built, and get it all running and on the road. And I had no idea what I was doing when I started.



I took it for a test ride after I loaded my first map and the difference wasn't much at first.(I started with some VERY conservative fuel adjustments) Went back and plugged it back in and then made some bigger changes(took 15 minutes) and then back on the road. This time the change was dramatic. The fuel curve leveled out much better and the flat spot at 4-4500(too lean at 3/4 to full throttle) was totally gone(I added 20% fuel at 4-4500 from 60% to full throttle). You could feel the difference in acceleration at that point dramatically different than before. Felt like a different bike. Much smoother power deliver without the surges in power. Wheelies seemed easier too. Went back and did one more adjustment on the fuel and timing. Seems to respond better with a little more advance down low and a little less fuel. I originally started with 0% change on both below 2500RPM. I am sure I will be adjusting the map on this thing many times before I am through experimenting. But with a 3-way map switch on the bars, it makes it easy to load three different maps to play with and compare them on the fly. I am ordering the map switch tomorrow. Man this thing is fun to play with.



By the way, the Yosh EMS is the same for the '02 as it is for the earlier models. It says '00-'01 on the package, but Yosh gauranteed me that it was the same for the '02 and the connections were all the same. The way it works is that it alters the stock ECU signal after the fact. Plugs inline with OEM connectors. No splicing of anything. Dynojet told me that the PCIIIr was different for the '02 than for the earlier models, thats why it wasn't available. Specifically told me that the connections were different on the '02. Guess what, the Yosh EMS fit just fine and the connections are the same as the '00-'01. Either the PCIIIr hooks up a different way than the Yosh EMS or they lied to me about it. But the Yosh works the same on all ZX12's.



So far, I have nothing but good things to say about the Yosh EMS. Nothing but bad things to say about my limited dealings with Dynojet(PCIIIr). Also, the Yosh EMS definitely fits the '02 and is available NOW! It is marginally more expensive than the PCIIIr but it has many more options. From everything I have heard about the PCIIIr, I believe the Yosh is a superior product. This has been my experience with the Yosh EMS on the '02 model so far. If I can think of anything negative to say I will post it but nothing but 4 star reviews at this point.

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Sounds like an excellent alternative to the PC3r! Thanks for the update. By the way, what pipe are you running?

With beer, anything is possible.</p>
 

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Discussion Starter #3
For my pipe, I have the workman/muzzy carbon fiber special. (minus the power robbing baffle Bogus Dave,<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ) There is a post on it somewhere but basically it is a homebuilt header from the stock downtubes with a Muzzy CF can. Probably flows about what a bolt-on can would minus the cat and somewhat less than a full race header.

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1) "It is very easy to install, a 10 year-old could do it. The software is very simple, straightfoward, and easy to use. You dont need to be a computer engineer to build a map or manipulate the timing."



Sounds like you COULD be talking about the PCIIIr! The installation, software and mapping are virtually identical to that of the Yosh EMS.



2) "Took fifteen minutes to install on the bike. Took fifteen minutes to build my first map(with the info I already knew about my fuel mixture). Took fifteen minutes to hook up the computer to the bike, download the map I built, and get it all running and on the road."



Still sounds like a PCIIIr!!



3) "The way it works is that it alters the stock ECU signal after the fact. Plugs inline with OEM connectors. No splicing of anything."



You sure you DIDN'T install a PCIIIr?? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> It sure does sound like you did!



4) "Dynojet told me that the PCIIIr was different for the '02 than for the earlier models, thats why it wasn't available. Specifically told me that the connections were different on the '02. Guess what, the Yosh EMS fit just fine and the connections are the same as the '00-'01. Either the PCIIIr hooks up a different way than the Yosh EMS or they lied to me about it. But the Yosh works the same on all ZX12's."



I won't say that I know 100% for sure that they didn't change anything for 2002 on the 12R, but I'd suspect you got some phone tech guy at Dynojet that didn't know what he was talking about. Happens all the time --- don't talk to the "phone jockeys" - talk to an engineer directly connected to the product. The PCIIIr connects to the '00-'01 models exactly as you described.



5) "From everything I have heard about the PCIIIr, I believe the Yosh is a superior product."



From everything I have heard about them, they are essentially the same product and do the same thing! I have also heard (but can NOT verify if it is true or not) that the Power Commander and Yosh EMS are made by the same company. The big selling point of the Yosh EMS is all the add-on features available (as you pointed out).



Please don't take this post the wrong way. I REALLY LIKE Yosh products! Hell, I've got a Yosh RS-3 Duplex Race exhaust system on my 12R!! But if you're only looking to change your fuel and ignition timing mapping and don't need all the extra (and extra cost) options of the Yosh EMS I don't see any superiority over the PCIIIr. Not that many Yosh units out there yet - so it's hard to talk about a comparison of the reliability of the units.



I'd suspect that most of the problems associated with the Power Commanders have to do with wiring - ie. wires getting smashed by improper routing, poor connections, etc... Or there might be problem with water/moisture shorting wires and/or circuitry? I really don't know! My PCIIIr has been working fine since I installed it a year ago and I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!









</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/ured12rrocket.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Red 12R Rocket</A> at: 4/28/02 9:52:48 pm
 

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Workman,

just the added features alone sound's like it would be worth it. thank you for the info. let us no if anything changes.



thanks 2fast12r

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Nice summary Workman. I love my Yosh EMS also.

Going to be ordering the 3 way switch in a couple of weeks. I will be riding at alot of different elevations this summer. Part of a day at or near sea level, the afternoons 2 to 3,000 feet above. The switch would definately benifit there.



I have been tweaking my maps ever so slowly. Can't seem to just get enough time to finish it. The Temps around here have been up and down from 85 one day to 30 the next. It's not making my fuel/air very consistant.

Keep us posted on the maps etc...currious as to what you will end up with down in the low rpm range.

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Have you considered using a dyno to help with customizing and optimizing your fuel and timing maps?? Seems like a lot of seat of the pants trial and error to get everything dialed in for your bike. I would imagine making adjustments based on consecutive dyno runs may add some science to the tweaking.

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BMW.... Workman has a Air/fuel gauge i believe and thats how he knows exactly what the bike is doing at all speeds and Revs..... and this is probably a bit better than a dyno because in 4th gear at 150 the dyno isn't pushin air in.



That is the setup i am shooting for. I just need to start saving my pennys...<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">



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Discussion Starter #9
Hey Red 12R Rocket,



If it sounds like I'm bashing Dynojet and the PCIIIr its because I am. This is the point I was trying to make. Actually, I tried very hard to get some information out of Dynojet about the PCIIIr and its availablility and they are guarding that information like its the invasion plans for Iraq. Yes, I probably did talk to some phone jockey tech guy at Dynojet(each of the fifteen different times that I called seeking info). Yes, I did ask to talk to an engineer. Did I get one, who knows? The point is this. Dynojet customer service and customer relations SUCK! Their tech guys SUCK! Regardless of whether or not it was a tech guy or an engineer that told me the harness connections were different, either they lied to me or gave me bad information. Either way, lies or misinformation, they SUCK! If they don't know, I would prefer they tell me they don't know, just don't lie about it or make up something. I have been trying for months to find an engine management system for my '02 model and it has been very frustrating. Compounding my frustration, is the lies and misinformation from Dynojet.(not to mention their arrogance) They swore to me up and down the connections on the '02 were different and that was one of the reasons I was hesitant to by the Yosh because I was afraid it wouldn't fit based on the bullshit told to me by Dynojet. Pretend like you have an '02 model and you NEED a fuel management system due to mods on your bike. Now call Dynojet and ask why the PCIIIr isn't available as advertised. Then ask them what is different about the '02 than the '00-'01. Then try asking them some technical questions about the operation of the pCIIIr. Their responses are misleading, ambivalent, and arrogant. Not to mention they talk to you like you don't know shit about the top secret world of fuel injection and engine management systems. I've got news for those fucking morons, I probably know more about it than they do and if I had the time and the resources, I could build a better product. With infinitely better customer service. They have been the only game in town for a long time and it shows. Thats the problem with lack of competition. My complete and utter dissatisfaction and contempt for their attitude drove me to their competition and I should thank them for it. My cheap ass didn't want to spring for the extra 20% more it cost me for the Yosh EMS but now I'm glad I did. Only time will tell as far as reliability of the Yosh EMS but their record with Suzuki is great and their customer service is much more helpful than Dynojet without the attitude. My guess is the PCIIIr is the same for the '02 as it is for the '00-'01, they just are testing a few maps before they release it. Dynojet probably figures that we(the general public) are just to damn stupid to be able to build maps on our own. Yes the stock fuel map for the '02 is different than the earlier models, but so what. I am competent enough to build my own, I sure don't need their map. Especially since I don't have a conventional aftermarket exhaust. Their piece of shit maps probably wouldn't work for me anyway and from what I hear, everyone has better results with custom maps anyway. I hope everyone that has a PCIIIr has good luck with it and I hope that you don't have any problems. But for anyone who feels the same as I do about Dynojet and wants an alternative, the Yosh EMS is the way to go. Especially if you have an '02 model. But if you really like Dynojet and want a PCIIIr for your '02 model, I'm sure they will have one available "either next week or next year, you'll just have to wait". At least thats what they told me.



Oh yea, BMW,



I have done a dyno run already but it would take many dyno runs under many different conditions to get it dialed in just right. I have installed an air/fuel gauge and an O2 sensor in my pipe that gives me real time readings of my air/fuel mixture. I make a change, go for a ride, then make adjustments based on my air/fuel reading. I figure by doing it this way under as diverse conditions as possible, I will get the best all around map. Then when I get it dialed in just like I think it should be, I will take it back to the dyno to see the results. I would rather do it this way than spend the large cash it would cost me to do that many dyno runs to get it dialed in. Plus, I have some skepticism about the ability of the dyno to dial it in for real world performance. Dynos have a lot of shortcomings, especially if you only do a couple of runs. I figure it would literally take dozens of dyno runs at different speeds, gears, load conditions, throttle positions, to get it just right. With my air/fuel gauge setup, this is all free on the streets where I actually do my riding and if the air/fuel mixture is right, then the bike should be running its best. Plus its fun to play with!

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I agree about the O2 setup. It is fun and very informative. Plus it looks cool as the reading zips from one side to the other when it is idling.



I STRONGLY suggest that anybody putting an aftermarket exhaust on should spring for the $10 O2 bung and the $10-$20 weld installation. The bung will come with a plug (K&N has each), and you can plug up the bung until you are ready to install an O2 and meter. Saves alot of time down the road. In fact, I am surprised that the aftermarket exhaust companies don't support this option. Charge the customer $30 extra to have this incorporated into the exhaust before shipping. I bet people would go for this option.

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I can understand your frustration with Dynojet. I'd be pissed too if I went through all that! So far I haven't had to call Dynojet for anything and my PCIIIr has been trouble-free.



I intended to buy the Yosh EMS instead of the PCIIIr. But, much like your attempt to get anything from Dynojet, Yosh kept stringing out the release date for the EMS when I was ready to buy. Four months AFTER the EMS was supposed to be released (and still wasn't!) I said fuck it and bought the PCIIIr. Figured if I didn't like it I could always sell it and buy the Yosh EMS at a later date.



You think getting stuff for your '02 is frustrating? You would have REALLY been upset owning the '00 model in the spring/summer of 2000!! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/ured12rrocket.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Red 12R Rocket</A> at: 4/29/02 8:55:37 am
 
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I have talked directly to the jerks at Dynojet and have been told twice that the 2002 version of the PCIII and PCIIIr is not yet ready. Their web site says it will be available 1st quarter 2002...thats already gone. Dynojet does not respond to my emails.



so, Dyno verbally says its not ready, the web site says its not ready, they are assholes on the phone, and they don't return email.



I wouldn't buy a Dynojet PCIII if it was $1.



My question.....why would anyone?

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I just didnt want the Dynojunk box because they basically fucked everyone over. "No we're not doing timing on the 12R" Whamo PC3R with timing adjustments. How many people bought the PC because they didn't think the PC3R was coming out for the 12R Dynojunk fucked those people over by out and out lying to them. 2nd I like the expandibility of the Yoshimura box. BTW the way U can' t just order the map switch and install it, you will need to get the expansion module. Wanna try and get a deal on two of them?, I need the module and switch as well...

It's True The Way I Feel

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Discussion Starter #14
I agree that it is very likely the reason you hear about more problems with the PCIII than the Yosh EMS is because of the number of units sold. More units on the market are bound to have more problems. But I hear more complaints about Dynojet as a company and not so much about their product. Electronic products fail. This is a fact of life. The difference is the help and assistance you get when those products fail. Most every story I hear about Dynojet and broken PCIII's are complaints about their shitty customer service and general bad attitude when it comes to being helpful to their customers. I never said that the EMS is a "bazzilion" times better than the PCIII, I just said it is a superior product. This is because of the additional features and options available for the Yosh EMS that are not offered with the PCIII. The fact that Yosh is better about customer service and their attitude in general is a bonus. I'm sure the PCIII is a fine product and many people have used them for years with great sucess, I just don't like to give my hard earned money to companies like Dynojet. This is based on my personal experience with them and nothing else. Its a matter of principle. As long as people continue to reward their arrogant attitude by buying their products, it will stay the same. Its amazing how a little competition can change the attitude of a company if they feel like they might start losing business.



If the team Yosh guys want to use the PCIII to build their maps with, it is because the dyno is manufactured by Dynojet and has the built in program to make the custom maps. The reason they may want to use the PCIII to build their maps is nothing more than expediency. You can do exactly the same thing yourself but it might be a little more work and time than the dyno just spitting out a custom map for you. But the end result is the same. But I'm just a regular Joe and I don't have an unlimited pocketbook to do the extensive dyno testing that it takes to build the custom maps for either the PCIII or the Yosh for that matter.. Team Yosh and all the other race teams in relation to my resources have an unlimited budget. Actually, they probably have their own dyno. Saves them time and nothing more. In theory, both the EMS and the PCIII do basically the same thing(not counting the optional features of the Yosh EMS). If you have the same exact map installed in both, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a PCIII and a Yosh EMS. Fuel is fuel and timing is timing regardless of how you come to the end result. Its just that Dynojet as a company sucks and I hate to give them my money. I'm just glad there's an alternative. For all the guys with a PCIII, I'm sure it works just fine for you and if I had one I certainly wouldn't throw it away to get a Yosh EMS. There is no reason they both shouldn't perform exactly the same if set up correctly. But I stand by my statement that the Dynojet company sucks and I won't give them my business unless I have no alternative.

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Workman, we see Eye 2 Eye on customer relations. I too wish Dynojet had a better attitude toward it's customers...because without them (the customers) they (dynojet) would be bankrupt. (Chapter 11)

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My experience with Dynojet has been "Top Notch". Customer service

couldn't have been better.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">



My experience with custom map's is disappointing. The ATOM race map

is far better than the $250 custom map I got a couple week's ago. I

trashed the custom map less than 24 hour's after it was made.



Just remember fella's. If all the people that were happy with the PC3/PC3R

posted about it. You'd have to look very hard to find the unhappy one's.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

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maybe the reason more people complain (have problems) with the Power Commander than the Yosh Box is because Power Commander has sold 1,000,000 more units than Yosh.



More Units on the street = More fail

Less Units on the street = Less fail



I happen to know that the Team Yosh guys want to use the Power Commander box with a dyno to make custom maps. & the Team that won the Formula Xtreem Championship

www.teamhammer.com use PC3R's & not the Yosh EMS.



Workman, I'm happy the Yosh box is working well for ya, but it isn't abazzillion times better than the PC3R.

"Be Humble, a lot was accomplished before you were ever born"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/ulhampel.showPublicProfile?language=EN>lhampel</A> at: 4/29/02 12:05:26 pm
 

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w1000: I am sorry to hear that you have had such a bad experience with Dynojet. We (as are all companies) are constantly striving to improve customer relations. I am pleased that you found a viable alternative in the Yosh EMS. Good luck.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/utearinitup.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Tearinitup</A> 
at: 4/30/02 11:06:21 am
 

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I would have to agree that in this case Dynojet may have some ground to stand on. It is possible that with XYZ number of units sold and installed by guys like us who are all experts in wiring and electronics that there is a possibility for a pinched wire here or a wire pulled loose from the back of the connector.



I know I am gonna catch flack from this and I am not calling anyone incompetent, however it could be possible that some of these problems with the PC3r could have too many variables besides just blaming DJ.



As for me......well I am still waiting for them to release mine...... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">



Tainui

If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/bkawasakizx12r.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=tainuinyc>TainuiNYC</A> 
at: 4/30/02 7:29:58 am
 

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Thanks for your concern Tearinitup. I assume you are with Dynojet. I sorry to bash dynojet so much in this thread but they really pissed me off. I have actually bought several jet kits in the past from Dynojet. I am in sales myself and all I know is I wouldn't be in business long if I behaved in the same manner toward my customers. I'm sure there are plenty of good people that work at Dynojet but realize that the people that answer the phones, customer service, and the tech guys are the only face of your company that the public ever sees. It seems that many people share my consternation with Dynojet. Not that I would tell you how your company should be run but Dynojet should seriously look into replacing the public relations branch of the company. A lot of technically oriented companies are run by the tech guys and focus on the technical side of things and look at the sales side and customer relations as a neccessary evil. Because the people that run these companies are not experienced in sales or beleive the product will sell itself, they neclect the most important part of business...customer relations. I know that people probably call all the time and ask a multitude of stupid questions and bug you about release dates of products and so on. I also know that it gets monotonous to answer the same questions constantly from individuals, but this is the nature of business. Regardless of how stupid the question is or how many times you answer the same question, everyone should be treated as if they and their questions are very important. Also, a lot of tech guys think that the general public are a bunch of morons and talk down to them and it shows. I work in a resort area and I am a real estate broker and beleive me, tourists are the biggest morons in the world. As soon as they cross the state line into Florida, they leave their common sense behind. Maybe they are not use to the sun but almost universally tourists act like morons. But when they come to talk to me about real estate, I treat them all like VIP's and I talk to them like they might actually have a brain in their heads. Its not kissing ass, its just good business. But in my business like all businesses, there are certain universal rules. #1) Tell the truth. Even if it isn't convenient. Your customers will appreciate it in the long run. #2) If you don't know something or screw up, admit it. Don't make something up. It only makes it worse. This is called digging your own grave in my business. #3) Treat everyone like they have a brain. Just because someone is not an engineer, doesn't mean they don't know anything about technical issues. Its not just Dynojet that is guilty of this but many companies. There is nothing more irritating than asking a company for some technical information on their product and they give you some kind of marketing crap that says our product is great, everyone thinks so. Personally, I won't buy anything unless I have a good idea of HOW it works and the concept behind it. And when I ask for technical data, I mean I want technical data, not fluff. Maybe you can forward this and some of the other threads you see floating around to the powers that be at Dynojet. Maybe if they see what some of the people on the street think, it will spur them to action. I really wanted to buy a PCIIIr and I waited several months before I choose the Yosh EMS. If my experience with Dynojet was any better than it was, I would have probably waited. But I do have a question for you, maybe you can get me a straight answer. What EXACTLY is different about the PCIIIr for the '02 as compared to the earlier models? Yes I know that they have different factory maps, but what does this have to do with anything? I want to know WHY the PCIIIr is different. And yes, I want the technical answer. Thank you.

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