[T^2]

I'm still up in the air about whether to install a TBR Can on my stock header or to go with an Akropovic full system.



If I should go with the TBR option, then I have the following questions:



1. First, I want to positively identify the catalytic converter. There are instructions on the TBR site that has pictures of what I assume is the Cat. Converter (although they don't expressly refer to it as such - ie. "The tubing that you will remove is part of the OEM design that allows the bike to meet production sound standards. It is not a performance enhancing device!"). The pictures that follow are the before and after shots of their instructions to remove all of the "tubing" except the last 1/2".

2. I've been told that removing the Cat. Converter is a necessity when installing the TBR Can. Are we talking about removing the internal mess of the C.C., or is the requirement to shorten the length of it to 1/2" as shown in the TBR instructions? Just curious... It seems to me that if you are going to shorten the length of the C.C. to 1/2" you might as well go ahead and remove the internal mess of the C.C. as well.



3. I've reviewed the procedure on the zx-12r forum for removing the Cat. Converter (it has a picture of the Cat. Converter removed). Question: Would you remove the C.C. before or after making the cut as instructed on the TBR site?

I wonder why TBR didn't instruct you to remove it (internal mess), after all they've already told you to cut off most of it's length - legal issues?



3. Does anybody have another/better/easier technique for removing the Cat. Converter than the one on the zx-12r forum? Not that the technique on the forum looks that bad, I'm just interested if anybody has come up with a more slick way of going about it.







</p>

 

[Guest]

I've had both. I can tell you that if your only lookin' for sound, than go with

the TBR. If you want more power than it's no contest. Akro. all the way.



What you have pictured, is the cat. con. I used a sawzall to cut off my cat. and yes I did cut the entire thing off. Keep in mind that it's made of Titanium

and it's a bitch to cut.

Stupid hurts.</p>

 

[Guest]

I've got the Two Bros....no complaints. Like Tenn said, if you have the bucks go Akra, TBR is good for the $'s though. Yes, cut then chisel out the remainder of the cat. I'm pretty sure TBR can't tell you to do that for legal reasons.

Ninja Dude1</p>

 

[Guest]

Legal issues? I doubt that. Aren't 95% of all these aftermarket exhausts "for racing use only"? Whacking off 2/3rds of the Cat Con can hardy be legal either for emissions.



Two Brothers says that the long pipe is for sound control, but yet they say cut it off? That would preclude the legal issues theory too. The long pipe that extends into the muffler MAY be for sound control, but on the other hand it may relate to exhaust wave tuning.



Let me suggest that Two Brothers requires the pipe be cut so that they don't have to go to the expense of engineering and producing a can that fits the large diameter ZX12 extended pipe. They may be using a universal can that fits many bikes with some alterations for the mounting.



As to the converter, I believe that it is an obstruction to gas flow. Since you are considering a bolt-on can to improve gas flow (performance), retaining the cat is counterproductive. The converter does not effect the sound of the exhaust.



I'm not being critical about the 2 Bros can. I have no experience with it, but be skeptical of what any salesman tells you.

Bogus Dave

</p>

 

[T^2]

Well I'm still considering the full Akro setup. However, I'm leaning hard towards the TBR can option. Here are my reasons.



1. I don't care to spend the kind of money that an Akro setup cost and end up with issues such as idle hunt/lope, flat spots in the rev range, problems with pcIII crapping out, finding the correct map etc.... I would rather stick with the stock pipe than spend that kind of money and end up with issues.



2. Extracting every last bit of H.P. out of this bike that I can isn't all that important to me. It already produces enough for my riding needs at the moment. I don't do a lot of drag racing etc. I'm just looking to improve the sound and cosmetic issues.



3. I remain cognizant of the money that I have wrapped up in this toy. I don't want that sum to become unreasonably large. Years down the road I'll never get the money back out of it if I sell the bike. Don't get me wrong I wasn't looking for an investment when I bought it. If I was I would have bought a Harley. No, I bought it because I wanted a bike that I would enjoy. I just don't want to have a mint wrapped in it when I'm all done and the Akro system is pretty pricey.



4. Looks wise the Akro system beats the TBR can option hands down. Still the TBR can still looks pretty good to me.



5. It sounds like a pain in the ass to find a place in Ohio that does the dyno/pciii mapping work. BMW told there is a place in Columbus that does it. Still it sounds like a pain to buy all the components from say spencercycle and then haul all the shit and the bike up to Columbus to have it done - let alone finding time to do it with the work schedule I have. Anybody know of places in Ohio that do this kind of work?



6. What are we talking about to do the job right? Akro system, pcIII, K&N fillters, Kleen system block off plates, and dyno/pcIII mapping cost. How much will this run?



I don't know... I think for this season the TBR can may meet my needs. If I change my mind next season then I may do the Akro setup then. I think the idea of using the extra cash on other mods I want to do this season sounds good to me.



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/utbbt.showPublicProfile?language=EN>TBBT</A> at: 4/14/02 7:17:42 pm

 

[Guest]

#1 The $ is the only issue here. The Akro. can doesn't require the PC3 any

more than the TBR can does. They both run OK without it, and they both run

better with it.



#2 The TBR can has a deep rumble that is too loud for some people. The Akro. is kinda quiet in comparison.



#3 The $ is the big factor for most of us. You can alway's sell the can

separate from the bike. Either can will sell for a resonable amount very

easily.



#4 TBR look's good to me too. I came in second only to a $40k Non-Harley/

Harley in the last bike show I entered with it.



#5 see #1



#6 The Akro. is a bit more complicated to install, but still fairly easy.



If you don't really want the xtra HP, then Two Brother's is the way to go.

Stupid hurts.</p>

 

[Guest]

The bolt-on can has a lot going for it as posted above. One of the best things about an aftermarket can is ease of installation. However, cutting off the titanium end pipe does not have a lot of appeal. Who makes an aluminum bolt-on can that is engineered properly to just install on the bike with no alterations, except removing the cat which is an easy job? Yoshimura?

Bogus Dave





</p>

 

[T^2]

TENN12: UUGGHHH! The TBR can is loud? I was under the impression that it was about the same as a Yosh can, which tend to be more quite (at least that was my experience with Yosh in the past). Damn, I'm leaning towards the TBR can but I don't want to end up with an obnoxious sounding bike...



Dave Bogue: I believe the Yosh can requires no modifications. However, after looking at some pictures of it on other folks 12's, it looks to be about as big as the original can (ie. a 50 gallon drum). Of course I could be wrong, my perception could have been skewed or it may have just looked that way in the pictures...

</p>

 

[Guest]

TBBT.....Where are you in Ohio? I'm in Middletown, if you are close enough you are certainly welcome to check out the TBR in person. Give you a much better idea of sound, appearance, etc.



As far as sound, Wardawg has a Yosh can on his....while the sound is a little different, as far as overall loudness, the two are about the same.



If you want to check out the can let me know.

Ninja Dude1</p>

 

[Guest]

Yosh markets a can that melts the turn signal? Now that's a combination of great engineering and marketing. I hope they warned you in their installation literature, but it sounds like from your post that they didn't. Why does the consumer have to R&D these products? Just another incentive to modify the stock can.



This reminds of the posts from guys that say their Muzzy system melted plastic on the fairing.



Surely some company has marketed a bolt-on without the problems mentioned in this thread.

</p>

 

[T^2]

Ninja Dude 1: I live in Loveland - less than 20 minutes away. Ya, it would be great to see the TBR can in person....

</p>

 

[T^2]

I don't know, but looking at the following pictures suggest that the Yosh is closer to the same size as the stock can than I would like. The TBR can looks a bit smaller. The flange on the Yosh is another thing I don't like about it. I don't like the looks of the angled flange. However, It's a Yosh can and I've had good experiences with their products in the past so I'm sure it's a good product. I guess it's personal preference, but the TBR setup just looks better to me. My only concern is the damn thing will be too loud. I didn't have problems with the Yosh's I've had in the past as far as noise is concerned - so I guess that's a point in Yosh's favor.

</p>

 

[Blitzkrieg]

If you are going to putting on ANY kind of can, you should be removing the CAT. If you are going to run a CF can, you better remove the cat or else you aren't going to have a CF can for very long.



If you are going to remove the CAT, and don't want backfiring, you will be removing the Kleen Air.



To optimize your new exhaust, you're going to want to run a PC3R or Yosh and MAP it out.



Now, after all this, your can is not going to give you anywhere near Akra level performance. So eventually, you're gonna want the Akra.



You're going to eventually sell the can on Ebay, and take at least a $200 dollar hit. Then buy the Akra anyway.



So by buying the can first, it cost you about $200 more and about 6 hours wrench time to get the Akra, which is what you should have done in the first place.



My opinion only... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek">





"Remember Folks --- Stop Lights Timed For 35mph Are Also Timed For 70mph." </p>

 

[Guest]

Or you can do what I did, buy a used can for $150.00, try it for a while, and if I later got the full Akra route, I can sell the Yosh for close to what I paid for it.



I like the convenience of being able to switch back to the stock system in a few minutes. If I'm going to go ride a 1000 miles in a day, which I have a couple of times on my old ZRX1100, I like the quiet pipe.

</p>

 

[T^2]

Well having a "backfire" issue after installing the TBR can and removing the Cat. Converter might be a problem. Has anybody that has this setup had this problem?



I'm not opposed to the idea of removing the Kleen Air system. I'm all for reducing the operating temp of the machine especially with summer coming on. My only concern here is how it effects the warranty....





</p>

 

[Blitzkrieg]

As a general rule, the Kleen Air is going to cause backfiring with any pipe that increases the exhaust flow.



I believe the stock can actually has some built in back pressure so that the cat can fully burn everything up.



Keep in mind that while not awful, the stock header is a typical stock header. There is lots of welding flash and fitting overruns to decrease the efficiency compared to a really well made header like the Akra.



I've personally inspected both, and after looking inside the stock header it was an easy decision that the whole thing was coming off.



You drive one of the highest performance engines available in any stock motorcycle. It really takes alot to knock the motor up to the next plateau. Thats what the Akra/Kleen Air removal/K&N and PC3R, Header Wrap like I have does for you.



You think the bike is fast stock, it's night and day with the above mods installed.



For the record, mine has never once hiccuped or had any kind of failure.

"Remember Folks --- Stop Lights Timed For 35mph Are Also Timed For 70mph." </p>

 

[Guest]

Don't let me scare you off with the sound comment. It's not obnoxious at

all. You should check out ND's.



As far as the blinker subject goes, all you have to do is shorten them. 15min

easy job. Cost's nothing. The Akro. will also cause you to have to shorten

your blinker's.

Stupid hurts.</p>

 

[T^2]

Even if I went with the Akro and bought the additional items (pcIII, Kleen system block off plates, K&N filters) and I installed all the stuff myself it still sounds like a hefty chunk of change. That doesn't include the cost of the dyno/mapping work. Spencercycle has the combo deal for just under $1300. Add the block off plates and the dyno work and we're talking about a sum that is quite a bit more substantial than the cost of just a TBR can. Of course I've been told that the pcIII and mapping isn't necessary for the Akro system. However, if I'm going to go that route then I'm going to do it right.



I've mentioned before that extracting the extra few h.p. wasn't all the important to me at the moment. That may change. Who knows, I may change my mind next week and go with the akro system. Right now though the TBR can seems like a reasonable and easy option (easy being a huge bonus at the moment). I figure that if I'm unhappy with the setup then I can change it nextg season.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub56.ezboard.com/utbbt.showPublicProfile?language=EN>TBBT</A> at: 4/15/02 4:44:36 pm

 

[Blitzkrieg]

My stock blinkers are fine (I don't like the way the look, but they haven't had any heat problems) Tenn12, with about 2k on the system. I haven't had any melting problems whatsoever. What have you experienced?

"Remember Folks --- Stop Lights Timed For 35mph Are Also Timed For 70mph." </p>

 

[Guest]

TBBT, I'm going to get out tomorrow afternoon and ride. Let me know if you want to check out the TBR. As far as overall noise level, the Yosh and the TBR are about the same. Like I mentioned earlier, slightly different sound, but same overall noise level.



Regarding everything else, I cut out the cat and installed the TBR. No backfiring problems at all. Still have kleen air (it will be going though). Also no PCIII. I have no idle hunt problems either. It's certainly not a full Akra system, but certainly not the big ass stock can either. Main thing....I'm satisfied.



TBBT, send me an email at [email protected] and we can hook up. If nothing else it will give you an in person look and sound test.

Ninja Dude1</p>